40 is the combined number of Juniper, Keeper and Bay class USCG vessels with icebreaking capability. I am sure he just saw the number on a sheet presented to him and regurgitated it with no rational thought process.
Perhaps. One thing I learned in 2020 is that the while President Trump was prone to get ahead of the policy process in his public statements, there was something behind the statements. July of 2020 was too late in the first term to make something happen (as those who opposed the initiatives just waited him out). This time, I get the feeling that something will be different.
You do know that the US had had a military presence on Greenland since Denmark surrendered to the Germans in 1940, right? And that it is the US that annually brings military supplies to the northern reaches of Greenland through Operation Pacer Goose? No need for icebreakers.
The big question is what happens if Greenland declares independence. Without attachment to Denmark, it will find itself outside NATO instantly. Without its own defense budget or military, it would take quite a long time before Greenland would meet the NATO accession requirements on its own. There really is a strategic issue there...
With respect, I wasn't making a joke. Given his inclinations, I sincerely believe his motivation for the announcement was to further the acquisition of Greenland. Frankly, your reply is disappointing. I was directed to your Substack by Gone Incognita - I didn't expect such a dismissive reply.
The last sentence of my response was in frustration, as I've heard the statement you made- or something like it- countless times over the past month. And without any additional information, I wasn't sure how aware you are of the situation. So I responded with facts, but yes, my tone was a bit snarky.
The US already has forces on Greenland, we don't need icebreakers to bring in more, and our icebreakers are unarmed. They mostly support scientific research missions, but are needed off the Alaskan coast for normal U.S. Coast Guard missions too (fisheries enforcement, search and rescue, patrolling US waters, responding to potential environmental disasters- etc), and to keep the Great Lakes open during winter. So we need more of them. One of our two Polar vessels tis more than 50 years old and is somewhat unreliable. We're one engine failure away from not being able to supply our Antarctic Research missions. We've needed more ships for a long time. I think its good to see movement on this front.
Secondly, I see the status of Greenland as an actual NATO security issue (as I referenced in my first response), not something that President Trump made up on a whim. I worked at the U.S. Embassy in Helsinki during his first term, and I believe this based on my earlier experience with his policy team.
It seems you and I disagree, but that's okay. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm always happy to talk about icebreakers.
Most don't understand that shipbuilding know-how is only gathered and improved upon continuous feedback loops of completed builds and the combined experience of the persons involved in those builds, deliveries and their warranty periods. Saying that any shipyard can build any vessel cannot be further from the truth.
Same thing as any complex large manufacturing like Aircraft or Nuclear powerplants, as soon as you stop doing it, that combined know-how is slowly lost. There is no switch to flip later on to start doing it from scratch again. Using an existing Basic Design from a different project or different yard and trying to complete it at a different shipyard than the ones with the experience, is not going to end up in any way or form easy, cheap or on-time.
The Polar Security Cutter program is doomed to be perpetually in build and having rising costs as they decided to go for an old iteration of the Polarstern II Basic Design without having any experience in this type of vessel.
This is why I find what Davie is doing so interesting. It's similar to what the U.S. was hoping to do in 2019-2020.
Davie is going to build their own design (well, really an Aker-Helsinki Shipyard Design) polar icebreaker for Canada. Production will start in Helsinki Shipyard, with Canadian workers working alongside the Finns. The ship will be completed in Quebec. By using a yard and design team that has worked together well for quite some time, they can begin construction before the design is 100%. This is how they intend to deliver a PC2 polar icebreaker to the Canadian Coast Guard by 2030. Now its not cheap- but shipbuilding in Canada is some of the highest cost in the world (higher even than in the USA). So that, the timeline, and probably the costs associated with training and upgrading their Quebec yard adds to the cost they'll pay- but the price is less overall than what the government of Canada will end up paying Seaspan for the more "traditionally" built ship.
This project looks like a well-placed long-term bet and a boost to Canada's own already existing icebreaker knowledge. Higher upfront costs but long term benefit.
Helsinki Shipyard was in dire need of a new owner while sitting on a heap of knowledge and empty order book, a prime candidate for someone who needs plenty of Icebreakers. So I'm happy that at least someone bought it.
I'm very happy that the order came through. I was hoping though that the whole build could have been kept in Helsinki as this would most likely have cemented a good order book for the future and kept the know-how local. However, I also understand that concessions have to be made to enable the build at all.
There is a long-term risk for Finland with this shared style of build, which is the risk of exporting rare and high-demand knowledge at a fraction of its value. But considering the Rus haven't been able to reproduce any of the multiple builds they made in Helsinki, it could well be that arrangements have been made and this is taken care of already.
As much as I like the idea of significantly improving our woeful capacity in this regard, 40 ships is going to put a big dent in the savings DOGE has dug up thus far. Hopefully there will be *some* consideration given to the fact that the country is 36 trillion dollars in debt.
When you've taken out a quadruple mortgage on the house, and run all the credit cards out to their stops, is not the time to go shopping for a fleet of fancy new cars. Not that anyone would *give* you or I the credit to do so in those circumstances, but you get what I'm saying.
Of course, a bunch of the money leaks that DOGE has found in just their first thirty days have been pretty dang bad. So maybe we'll end up able to afford it after all.
40 is the combined number of Juniper, Keeper and Bay class USCG vessels with icebreaking capability. I am sure he just saw the number on a sheet presented to him and regurgitated it with no rational thought process.
Perhaps. One thing I learned in 2020 is that the while President Trump was prone to get ahead of the policy process in his public statements, there was something behind the statements. July of 2020 was too late in the first term to make something happen (as those who opposed the initiatives just waited him out). This time, I get the feeling that something will be different.
He will want them for his acquisition of Greenland.
You do know that the US had had a military presence on Greenland since Denmark surrendered to the Germans in 1940, right? And that it is the US that annually brings military supplies to the northern reaches of Greenland through Operation Pacer Goose? No need for icebreakers.
The big question is what happens if Greenland declares independence. Without attachment to Denmark, it will find itself outside NATO instantly. Without its own defense budget or military, it would take quite a long time before Greenland would meet the NATO accession requirements on its own. There really is a strategic issue there...
But it's easier to make jokes.
With respect, I wasn't making a joke. Given his inclinations, I sincerely believe his motivation for the announcement was to further the acquisition of Greenland. Frankly, your reply is disappointing. I was directed to your Substack by Gone Incognita - I didn't expect such a dismissive reply.
The last sentence of my response was in frustration, as I've heard the statement you made- or something like it- countless times over the past month. And without any additional information, I wasn't sure how aware you are of the situation. So I responded with facts, but yes, my tone was a bit snarky.
The US already has forces on Greenland, we don't need icebreakers to bring in more, and our icebreakers are unarmed. They mostly support scientific research missions, but are needed off the Alaskan coast for normal U.S. Coast Guard missions too (fisheries enforcement, search and rescue, patrolling US waters, responding to potential environmental disasters- etc), and to keep the Great Lakes open during winter. So we need more of them. One of our two Polar vessels tis more than 50 years old and is somewhat unreliable. We're one engine failure away from not being able to supply our Antarctic Research missions. We've needed more ships for a long time. I think its good to see movement on this front.
Secondly, I see the status of Greenland as an actual NATO security issue (as I referenced in my first response), not something that President Trump made up on a whim. I worked at the U.S. Embassy in Helsinki during his first term, and I believe this based on my earlier experience with his policy team.
It seems you and I disagree, but that's okay. Thank you for taking the time to respond. I'm always happy to talk about icebreakers.
I understand. Thanks for your note.
One can only hope ... any number from a couple up to and including 40 would be great.
Most don't understand that shipbuilding know-how is only gathered and improved upon continuous feedback loops of completed builds and the combined experience of the persons involved in those builds, deliveries and their warranty periods. Saying that any shipyard can build any vessel cannot be further from the truth.
Same thing as any complex large manufacturing like Aircraft or Nuclear powerplants, as soon as you stop doing it, that combined know-how is slowly lost. There is no switch to flip later on to start doing it from scratch again. Using an existing Basic Design from a different project or different yard and trying to complete it at a different shipyard than the ones with the experience, is not going to end up in any way or form easy, cheap or on-time.
The Polar Security Cutter program is doomed to be perpetually in build and having rising costs as they decided to go for an old iteration of the Polarstern II Basic Design without having any experience in this type of vessel.
This is why I find what Davie is doing so interesting. It's similar to what the U.S. was hoping to do in 2019-2020.
Davie is going to build their own design (well, really an Aker-Helsinki Shipyard Design) polar icebreaker for Canada. Production will start in Helsinki Shipyard, with Canadian workers working alongside the Finns. The ship will be completed in Quebec. By using a yard and design team that has worked together well for quite some time, they can begin construction before the design is 100%. This is how they intend to deliver a PC2 polar icebreaker to the Canadian Coast Guard by 2030. Now its not cheap- but shipbuilding in Canada is some of the highest cost in the world (higher even than in the USA). So that, the timeline, and probably the costs associated with training and upgrading their Quebec yard adds to the cost they'll pay- but the price is less overall than what the government of Canada will end up paying Seaspan for the more "traditionally" built ship.
This project looks like a well-placed long-term bet and a boost to Canada's own already existing icebreaker knowledge. Higher upfront costs but long term benefit.
Helsinki Shipyard was in dire need of a new owner while sitting on a heap of knowledge and empty order book, a prime candidate for someone who needs plenty of Icebreakers. So I'm happy that at least someone bought it.
I'm very happy that the order came through. I was hoping though that the whole build could have been kept in Helsinki as this would most likely have cemented a good order book for the future and kept the know-how local. However, I also understand that concessions have to be made to enable the build at all.
There is a long-term risk for Finland with this shared style of build, which is the risk of exporting rare and high-demand knowledge at a fraction of its value. But considering the Rus haven't been able to reproduce any of the multiple builds they made in Helsinki, it could well be that arrangements have been made and this is taken care of already.
Please ignore our media.
…or don’t, but there’s more interesting ways of anxiety dopamine masochism and self harm.
As much as I like the idea of significantly improving our woeful capacity in this regard, 40 ships is going to put a big dent in the savings DOGE has dug up thus far. Hopefully there will be *some* consideration given to the fact that the country is 36 trillion dollars in debt.
When you've taken out a quadruple mortgage on the house, and run all the credit cards out to their stops, is not the time to go shopping for a fleet of fancy new cars. Not that anyone would *give* you or I the credit to do so in those circumstances, but you get what I'm saying.
Of course, a bunch of the money leaks that DOGE has found in just their first thirty days have been pretty dang bad. So maybe we'll end up able to afford it after all.
About the process… uh…
Process is Dickens Chancery Court meets USAID and IRS slush fund, process had a 329 year old eligible for social security.
Hundreds of eligible recipients over 300 years old.
Process is grift.
—-/—-
No Executive is just rhetoric certainly not this one.
Just follow the leader.
Or in this case the client’s Chief Executive, Trump.
Atleast the USCG tried proposing it. The end result would in any case not have been pretty.
https://alaskapublic.org/2024/05/07/the-u-s-was-supposed-to-get-keys-to-a-new-heavy-icebreaker-this-year-instead-construction-is-years-late-as-costs-soar/